Table of Contents
Introductions: The Host, The Guest, and The Topic
Host (Micros Lucas): Dear friends, how are you? I’m Micros Lucas, and I welcome you to a new edition of Piensa Más (Think More).
Today we are going to talk about a topic that generates a lot of controversy: the Black Legend. What role did Spain play in the colonization process? Some get offended when you say colonization; everything is an offense to different sides.
So, we are going to discuss this interesting topic with one of the main history communicators in the country, if not the most important, Rafael Aita, “Capitán Perú.”
He studied—although he is an enthusiast of history, very well informed—he studied engineering at the University of Lima, did a master’s in strategic planning at Centrum Católica with a double degree from the University of Maastricht in the Netherlands, and also entered the doctorate program in administration at ESAN.
And here something unites us, my dear Rafael, welcome. He was precisely my professor in my doctoral studies.
Guest (Rafael Aita): That’s right. Yes. You have fond memories of that, I imagine.
Host (Micros Lucas): Yes, especially my failing grade on the final. I must say that the professor doesn’t mess around and he hit me with a stick.
Guest (Rafael Aita): That’s how I did it, I gave him the thumbs down at once because I said, “No, my boy, this is…” but I always found potential in you. And here you are, right? Beyond the grade, beyond the experience.
Host (Micros Lucas): It helped me a lot, it helped me a lot to write because it’s true that at that time, we’re talking 2017… No, 2016.
Guest (Rafael Aita): 2016, right? That is, I saw enormous potential in you because you had a wealth of ideas. The problem is that the ideas were going everywhere and matched the title of your dissertation, which was “Chaos Theory,” or something like that.
Host (Micros Lucas): That’s right.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And everything was chaos. So, I had to put a little order to the chaos.
Host (Micros Lucas): Yes. It was an abstract painting. I still remember that specific comment that said, “The author must consider that the reader does not read his mind.”
Guest (Rafael Aita): Exactly.
Host (Micros Lucas): It helped me a lot later to write and organize myself better. Trying to always put yourself in the other’s place, right? So that another can understand.
Defining the “Black Legend”: Beyond Black and White
Host (Micros Lucas): But well, let’s put ourselves in the place of our viewers and get into a controversial topic: the Black Legend. What is the Black Legend, Rafael?
Guest (Rafael Aita): We must know how to define the Black Legend, because many equate the Black Legend, or denying the Black Legend, with a “Pink Legend.” As if denouncing the Black Legend were equivalent to denying that there was any type of abuse or any type of excess, and saying that the conquest was done with flowers and hugs.
No. Combating the Black Legend is not denying the abuses. It is not saying, “No, nothing bad happened here.” Rather, combating the Black Legend is combating a biased discourse that only takes the negative side of a historical period.
A Black Legend is when history is distorted, manipulated, numbers are exaggerated, or part of the history is mutilated with a certain interest.
A very specific case that we see every day is when we hear, “The Spanish only came to rob, to kill, to rape, and to plunder.” Well, that is the Black Legend. Not because we are denying that excesses existed and that violence existed during the conquest, but come on, there was also the leaving of universities, hospitals, education, the language, the religion, the creation of the first dictionaries of native languages, the rescuing of the languages of the natives. That also existed, that also has to be told.
But of course, when one tells that, then the one listening to you will say, “Ah, so the Spanish did everything right. Ah, so there was nothing wrong.” And it becomes a dichotomy of two extremes, that is, black and white, forgetting the shades of gray. It was all good or all bad. And it seems more like a kind of… “If you are from ‘la U’ (Universitario), then I am from ‘Alianza’ (Alianza Lima).” And if you attack ‘la U,’ it’s because you’re from ‘Alianza.’ This is not a brawl between fan clubs. You have to understand the nuances of history and tell both the good and the bad.
The Psychological Impact: How the Black Legend Creates a National “Complex”
Host (Micros Lucas): And why is that important, Rafael? Why is it important to tell the good and the bad? What do people gain by being exposed to this discourse that, as you say, does not seek to create a Pink Legend—that is, that the entire colonial process was fantastic and beautiful, because it wasn’t. But what do we Peruvians gain by understanding our history better?
Guest (Rafael Aita): Well, I’m not the one who will answer that, María Rostworowski herself will answer it. One of our most brilliant historians, who in an interview says, “The way history is taught to us gives us a complex.”
Host (Micros Lucas): Mm.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And that is a wound for Peruvians. And this culture of submission, this culture of domination, of victimhood, of saying that we have always been humiliated and we need vindication for 500 years of oppression, gives us a complex.
Rostworowski herself said, “No, if they teach you the glory of the Inca Empire, which is true, it was marvelous, it was grandiose—which also had its bad things, obviously—but they teach us the most splendorous and good parts. But immediately after, they tell you that all that wonder collapsed because of 180 poorly equipped and ragged Spaniards. Obviously, that creates a complex for you.”
Host (Micros Lucas): Effectively, because at some point you say, “Well, are we stupid or are we useless? How did an empire of 10 million people let themselves be conquered by 180?”
Guest (Rafael Aita): By 180 subjects who also came from fighting crocodiles and were hungry. So yes, that generates a wound in us and that makes us see ourselves as less.
Host (Micros Lucas): So, what you point out is very important because there is a direct practical utility to this learning, which is to learn to know what we are, who we are, and knowing who we really are, right? To recognize our strengths, our weaknesses, and work on that. Stop blaming third parties, assume our own responsibilities, and start building a country together, which I think is ultimately the objective here in Peru.
The Origins of the Narrative: Velasco’s 1970s Reforms and Modern Politics
Host (Micros Lucas): Where does this Black Legend mainly arise from? What factors have conditioned it? I’ll throw one out at you, and you tell me if it’s correct: Peruvian historiography, Peruvian academia, has been very harsh on the Spanish legacy. Do you agree with this?
Guest (Rafael Aita): Here we can mark a before and an after. And this breaking point, I locate it in the 70s.
Host (Micros Lucas): The military dictatorship of Velasco Alvarado.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Velasco Alvarado. This does not mean that a negative vision of the conquest did not exist before. Look, you find that negative vision in Mariátegui’s “Seven Essays.” There was talk about this dichotomy of oppressor-oppressed and conqueror-conquered, but it was a topic among the elites, among the intellectual heads that was discussed in universities, which seems fine to me. The university is there to discuss those methodologies and interpretations.
The issue is that starting from the 1970s, Velasco carries out a curricular reform—which has not been changed until the Humala government, which didn’t change much either, except for removing the history course from school—that has essentially been maintained to this day, where this totally negative and humiliating vision of the conquest process is introduced.
And of course, you are doing it with children. It’s not the same for us, people who have studied for 40 years, to sit down and talk about this, as it is to do it with students who have no defenses against a discourse that very easily generates hatred, resentment toward their history, a wound.
So, it is from this curricular reform that… I don’t even blame Velasco anymore, because in 50 or 60 years, nobody has bothered to change it… that this dichotomy, this struggle of conqueror and conquered, is introduced to the general public, to all Peruvians, which fragments us and which we even see in politics now. Because this also serves to carry water to the mill of politics and certain ideological discourses.
Host (Micros Lucas): What you mention is good because it is also a current issue. Effectively, there are many political discourses that reclaim “indigenism.” It’s a false reclamation, in the sense that one must always demonize, one must find an opposite. In this case, the conqueror-conquered. The conqueror is associated with being white, associated with being rich…
Guest (Rafael Aita): Now even with being heterosexual, right? Anti-feminist, a religious fanatic.
Host (Micros Lucas): …and the conquered, who would be the indigenous, the marginalized, the feminist, the trans… I mean, we have reached that…
Guest (Rafael Aita): …the Andean, yes. A clash between Peruvians, so that we Peruvians hate ourselves. And yes, this ends up jumping into the political sphere. We see it very clearly in two episodes. First, in Pedro Castillo’s inauguration speech, where, in front of the King of Spain, he talks about how the “men of Castile” came to destroy the great prosperity that existed. And I think many realized then that this was no longer an academic issue, it’s not just about what the professor says in the classroom.
And the second also happened when Antauro Humala, in a meeting with his followers, says that he plans to recover Atahualpa’s ransom by kidnapping the King of Spain, and everyone celebrates it.
So, here you see specific episodes where this artificial discourse that was constructed in the 1970s ends up being a political instrument.
Deconstructing the Conquest of Peru: Pizarro & The Inca Civil War
Host (Micros Lucas): Exactly. Now, then, look, the Black Legend could be spoken of from a regional perspective, but I want to restrict it to the scope of Peru. So, let’s say regionally, Columbus arrives in 1492, America is discovered… 1492, sorry. America is discovered in 1492, and from there they begin, right? There are three more voyages, and the colonization process begins. And well, initially it will be Mexico with Cortés, and later it will touch Peru… or what was not Peru, it must be said, that’s another topic. At that time, Peru did not exist. And if I remember correctly, 1532 or 1536?
Guest (Rafael Aita): 1532 is the capture of Atahualpa.
Host (Micros Lucas): Exactly. When the Spanish arrive… there are several voyages by Pizarro, which by the way, starting now until 2032, we will be celebrating several 500-year anniversaries.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Ah, very good. Okay. This year is… Right, if I remember correctly, this year or last year… this year, this year marks 500 years since Pizarro’s first voyage.
Host (Micros Lucas): Where did he arrive?
Guest (Rafael Aita): To Ecuador. Okay. He doesn’t reach Peru on the first voyage. On the second voyage, there is the episode of Gallo Island.
Host (Micros Lucas): Right. The 13 of the Rooster.
Guest (Rafael Aita): The 13 of the Rooster is more or less around Colombia. And on the third voyage, he reaches the Peruvian coasts, and well, from there we know… well, that he disembarks in Piura and has a whole journey.
Here is something very interesting regarding Pizarro’s voyages, because when Pizarro simply borders the Pacific coasts, he begins to see warehouses, monumental constructions, and he says, “There is something important here.” He returns to Panama, but when he comes back for the last voyage, he finds all that destroyed. The war between Huáscar and Atahualpa had already occurred, and he saw the decay. So he said, “Something has happened here. This is not the same as what I saw a few years ago.”
So, all these episodes lead to 1532, which would culminate in the capture and execution of Atahualpa.
Host (Micros Lucas): Okay. And so, we can say that part of the Black Legend begins here in the country, right? With the arrival of this much-reviled and hated character… Rafael López Aliaga has just recovered those statues, which I celebrate and congratulate because it is part of who we are as history. What are the problems… what are the main foundations here? The Black Legend, at what points do you think this situation is exacerbated? What are the criticisms?
Myth #1: Pizarro the “Ignorant Pig Breeder”
Guest (Rafael Aita): Well, let’s start with Pizarro. Without much intention of defending Pizarro either, because he was also a character with his lights and shadows, but come on… for them to tell you that the subject was a pig breeder who came to Peru as an ignorant man from Extremadura…
Host (Micros Lucas): From Extremadura. Right, which is one of the most marginal and poor areas of Spain.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Marginal, and on top of that, he raised pigs. He was the worst of the worst. That in itself is a Black Legend because it doesn’t tell you that this happened in his adolescence.
Host (Micros Lucas): Right.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And that since his departure from Extremadura, which was very young—he left Extremadura at 19, if not earlier—he passes through Naples, which at that time was part of the Spanish empire, Charles V. He participates in the conquest of Naples. And furthermore, he is under the command of perhaps the best strategist, the best soldier in the history of Spain, the Great Captain, Fernández de Córdoba. So, he knows military strategy. He wasn’t the pig breeder who arrives in Peru.
From there he goes to America. In Panama, he participates in the expedition that discovers the Pacific with Balboa, and then he becomes the mayor of Panama. So, he was no small thing. He wasn’t a marginal figure, he wasn’t a nobody.
So, of course, right here you realize that they only start telling the bad things about this character. He captures Atahualpa.
Myth #2: The “Tragic” Capture of Atahualpa & The Role of Cuzco
Guest (Rafael Aita): And another thing that isn’t told, but that would change our way of seeing Atahualpa’s capture quite a bit—which I think is unanimous now, well, unanimous… I would even say among Hispanists. I have met Hispanists who say, “No, Pizarro did wrong to capture Atahualpa.” Sunsunegui himself, who defends Hispanicity and fights against the Black Legend in Mexico, I have heard him say, “Pizarro is the black stain of Hispanicity.” And it seems so.
Well, everyone condemns the capture and execution of Atahualpa, except the Huascaristas (supporters of Huáscar), because what we are not told is that in Cuzco, they celebrated the capture of Atahualpa. They saw it as… and the Cusqueños don’t like to be reminded of this. The truth hurts, but it doesn’t offend.
Host (Micros Lucas): Go ahead.
Guest (Rafael Aita): So we have to place ourselves in the circumstances of the time, and there are written chronicles, I imagine, of this. The documentation is there so they can’t say one is inventing things.
There are written chronicles, there are the books of José Antonio del Busto, there are… because many say, “Ah, the chronicles were written by the Spanish.” There are the chronicles of Titu Cusi Yupanqui, who was the third Inca of Vilcabamba. That is, he was Inca.
So, we have several versions, and what they tell you is that Atahualpa’s generals arrive in Cuzco before Atahualpa himself, who was in the north, and they massacre Cuzco. They make a terrible example of the Huascaristas. They killed his wives, they killed his children in front of Huáscar, they destroyed the… and perhaps all this was not as serious as what I personally consider hurt the Cusqueños the most: They burned the mummy of Tupa Yupanki.
Kiskis and Chalcuchimac take the mummy of the greatest Inca conqueror and burn it in the plaza of Cuzco. Can you imagine how much it must have hurt them? Their greatest Inca, whom they revered as a god, and to have him reduced to ashes. And that was like sacrilege, and it prevented you from communicating, because the Incas spoke with their mummies. That is, it was like a second death. That, for them, was the stab to the heart.
And after that, when Atahualpa is traveling triumphantly from Quito—because look, the chronicles say that in Cuzco, Atahualpa’s army was called “those from Quito,” like foreigners, “they are not one of us”—when he is on this march, the news arrives that halfway, in Cajamarca, some bearded men arrived from the sea and captured him.
What is the Cusqueño going to think? Divine justice. Exactly. This is the punishment of the usurper for having committed sacrilege against the true Inca.
So, of course, I always ask all the neo-Black Legend indigenists, I ask them to tell me what battle Francisco Pizarro fought to enter Cuzco. And there isn’t one. Not only because he didn’t have to fight a battle…
Host (Micros Lucas): Right, if he had been an undesirable character, of course, they would have been waiting for him.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Not even in Cuzco, they surely would have waited for him earlier…
Host (Micros Lucas): …from Jauja, ha, I mean, crazy.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Well, then, not only did he not fight a battle, they received him with a party. The probanzas (proofs of merit) of the time mention that the Spanish were received with holgo, that is, with great joy, with festivities. Because, of course, for them, they saw it as the balance, the equilibrium, the peace, being restored. A justice, a supernatural justice that had punished him thus.
A Complex Civil War, Not a Simple Conquest
Host (Micros Lucas): Look how interesting. That is, the first bombshell you’re dropping here is total. The intention to discredit… which in a way is also a disservice we do to ourselves, because if we present Pizarro as an incompetent pig breeder, I mean, what does that make us? It’s madness.
Guest (Rafael Aita): It is… it is low self-esteem taken to the maximum. That’s why Rostworowski says that discourse gives us a complex, it destroys us emotionally.
Host (Micros Lucas): Effectively. Well, Pizarro settles in, the voyages begin to colonize what would become Peru, the viceroyalty. What happens when the first viceroy is installed? We already have a small administrative structure. From then on, what other Black Legends will we have?
Guest (Rafael Aita): Well, first, they decapitate him.
Host (Micros Lucas): Ah, how nice.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And mind you, it wasn’t an Inca or an indigenous person who decapitated him. Gonzalo Pizarro, a Spaniard, decapitated him.
Host (Micros Lucas): Why?
Guest (Rafael Aita): Because with the arrival of this viceroy, the Leyes de Indias (Laws of the Indies) had been proclaimed. The Laws of the Indies effectively saw the abuses and excesses that the encomenderos (Spanish land grantees) were committing in America and restricted their privileges, restricted their powers.
Host (Micros Lucas): But the encomiendas (land grants) I think were affected…
Guest (Rafael Aita): The encomiendas were reduced, they could no longer evangelize, they were no longer in perpetuity, the lands became the property of the king. I also understand the lands became the property of the king and he could take them away from the encomendero if he committed an abuse. That is, it protected the indigenous person, it prohibited the indigenous person from being judged by the Inquisition. In short, a whole series of norms that led the encomenderos and Spanish conquerors themselves to rise up against the king. And in the case of Peru, to grab Blasco Núñez de Vela in Quito, cut off his head, and put it on a pike, which was a crime of high treason.
Host (Micros Lucas): Of course, because killing the viceroy, the king’s representative, was like assassinating the king himself.
Beyond “Spanish vs. Indigenous”: The Many Factions of the War
Guest (Rafael Aita): Like assassinating the king himself. It was open rebellion. So, of course, Charles V says, “Well, what do I do here? This is getting out of my control.” I think Gonzalo Pizarro had the intention of proclaiming himself King of Peru, and perhaps if there wasn’t so much discourse against him, he would be taken as a precursor to independence, because he wanted… he was the first who wanted to make Peru independent from Spain. Something that no indigenist will ever acknowledge, but there it is.
At one point, well, first hesends armies, they are defeated… He sends Pedro de la Gasca, who acts as a negotiator, as a peacemaker. He sends a priest with a Bible in his hand who ends up having better results than all his armies. Why? Because Pedro de la Gasca knows how to negotiate and realizes that the indigenous people were also fed up with the war. We are talking about 30 years of war since Huáscar and Atahualpa. The rebellion of Manco Inca, who had also suffered the abuses of Gonzalo Pizarro—which nobody, nobody can deny these abuses because even Philip II himself recognized it. “They have been abusive with Manco Inca, come on, we have to forgive him.”
Host (Micros Lucas): And this is the way to gather history, that is, everything that happened, to try to lift it up, everything that happened, the good and the bad, to better understand the process.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And what happens here? You have the Huancas, the Huaylas, the Tarmas, the Chachapoyas fighting against the rebellious encomenderos (against the king) and in favor of the King of Spain, because they saw that the Crown brought stability, order, peace, which is what they were looking for.
So, every time they tell me, “Yes, the damned Spanish came to rob and plunder,” I ask: you have the side of the rebellious encomenderos against the king, like Gonzalo Pizarro or Hernández de Girón. And on the other hand, you have the Huancas or the Incas like Alonso Tito Ataucuchi who fight against these traitors to the crown and defend the Spanish crown.
Which is the “Spanish” side here?
Host (Micros Lucas): Effectively, technically it would be the locals who supported the king.
Guest (Rafael Aita): The dichotomy breaks.
Host (Micros Lucas): Exactly. This duality is broken. That is, from the origin, this issue is flawed. From the origin, we cannot put two sides. There is a… it’s a complexity, really.
Guest (Rafael Aita): What you see there, from what you explain, there are factions. Exactly.
Host (Micros Lucas): Not necessarily due to political loyalties, but also due to economic interests or matters of belief, but this history is much richer than this good-vs-evil division.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Right, “Spanish vs. Indigenous.” Because among the indigenous, you have the Huascarista faction, the Atahualpista faction, the Manco Inca faction, the Paullu Inca faction (who fought for the Spanish), the faction of the Huancas, the Huaylas, the Chachapoyas… And among the Spanish, you have the Pizarristas, who hated the Almagristas and vice versa, and the Crown’s faction, which wanted to bring order to both and ended up imprisoning both.
So you say, “There are not two sides here, no way.”
Host (Micros Lucas): Of course, there are many more factions in general.
Guest (Rafael Aita): This was a network where the Spanish also had to negotiate and had to say, “Hey, you help me, and I give you privileges, and I give you a noble title, I give you a coat of arms, I give you an encomienda, I give you land.” And the Curacas (local chiefs) and the Incas knew how to negotiate in this situation of a war of all against all to position themselves well in the new system.
And I believe that leaves the Incas, the Curacas, the natives, in a better light than saying, as I have heard many foreigners say, especially from Mexico, “Ah, but we resisted more. The Incas were conquered in half an hour,” which was how long Atahualpa’s capture took.
No, no, no. Wait a minute. It’s not that they were useless fools who let themselves be conquered in half an hour. They knew how to negotiate their position so that in the new system they would have noble titles, lands, political power. And I think that leaves us better off as Peruvians in Andean history.
Host (Micros Lucas): Cortés did dominate, right? That was an immediate collapse.
Guest (Rafael Aita): In Peru, pacts had to be made, alliances had to be formed. In Mexico, conditions were imposed. And that is why there was no court of Aztec or Mexica nobles in Mexico, but there was a court of Inca nobles in Cuzco. A huge difference.
So, then you realize that by breaking the Black Legend, you are speaking in favor of the history andina. That’s right. You are not defending Spain. Many say, “Hey, what do you care about Spain anyway? Why do you defend Spain?” No, brother, it’s not defending Spain, it’s defending our own history. That is, it’s defending how the Incas and the Curacas negotiated their position in the new system.
Indigenous Rights, Queen Isabella, and the “Laws of the Indies”
Host (Micros Lucas): Interesting. Now, going back a bit to the process itself, and from here we will go into details during the viceroyalty… there is a Black Legend that basically says that the indigenous people, the “Indians,” were treated like garbage, that they had no rights. Here, Isabella I, the Catholic, has something to say. And the story of Bartolomé de las Casas also comes in. Bartolomé de las Casas was this priest, right? He denounces the abuses. What can you say about that? And relate it to the topic of Derecho Indiano (Indies Law) with Isabella the Catholic.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Yes. Well, already from Isabella the Catholic, we see a will to respect the rights of the natives.
Host (Micros Lucas): So, is it true that they were legally considered garbage, or was it that there were no laws yet?
Guest (Rafael Aita): Let’s take into account that surely neither Columbus nor Isabella the Catholic knew what they were going to find.
Host (Micros Lucas): Effectively, right? They were looking for new routes, they were looking for a passage to the Indies, and at some point, they find themselves in a totally new situation, and legislation did not exist.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Yes, what existed were customs. And in this sense, Columbus, yes, it must be said, took slaves.
Host (Micros Lucas): Mm.
Guest (Rafael Aita): He massacred the Taínos, perhaps. Of course, many say…
Host (Micros Lucas): The Taínos are from the Caribbean, currently the Dominican Republic.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Okay. No, and but of course, Columbus also leaves a fort in Hispaniola, and when he returns, he finds that this fort has been destroyed, and the Spaniards he left there had been eaten.
Host (Micros Lucas): Ah.
Guest (Rafael Aita): So he said, “Ah, no, these are savages, let’s kill them all.” And those who weren’t, plin, he enslaved them. “And I’ll take them because these are not civilized.”
When Isabella the Catholic sees that, she frees them and imprisons Columbus. Look, at this time there was no law for the natives, but she already begins to say, “No, no, no, no. These are not enslavable, they are subjects of the crown just like any Spaniard.”
She also leaves that in the ordinances to Nicolás de Ovando when she writes, “Spanish men marry Indian women, and Indian men marry Spanish women.” Of course, there was no legislation for the time, but the predisposition for mestizaje (racial mixing) was explicit from the beginning, from the ordinances of Isabella the Catholic, from her will that she leaves written, that their rights must be considered.
The Great Debate: Spain Stops the Conquest
Guest (Rafael Aita): Well, Isabella the Catholic dies, she leaves her will, but anyway, the legal process was long. We first have the Laws of Burgos, the New Laws, the Laws of the Indies. In this whole intermediate period, it wasn’t a legal vacuum. And this leads, for example, to the first indigenous person being burned in Mexico by the Inquisition. In Mexico, the Inquisition did execute the only indigenous person in the entire continent because it was not regulated.
When this reaches Spain’s ears, they say, “Hey, but is this legal? Is this feasible? Can you burn someone who is not converted?” Because supposedly the Inquisition judged Christian heresies, and it was considered that the indigenous people were in the process of conversion, so they should not be judged by the Inquisition.
Bartolomé de las Casas writes all these denunciations, perhaps at the time with good intentions to get the crown’s attention. He exaggerates the numbers because, yes, we already know, there is no way the numbers Bartolomé de las Casas mentioned add up. And that’s why it’s said the Black Legend begins with him, because his figures are unreal.
Host (Micros Lucas): How many does Bartolomé de las Casas talk about?
Guest (Rafael Aita): An exact figure… but more or less, he talks about millions. So it’s an unreal, a very exaggerated matter. But well, let’s say his intention was to get attention in Spain. I give him the benefit of the doubt that he wanted to act in good faith.
The issue is that Spain, at this moment, does something that is also not told, and which no empire has done, before or after, to this day: It stopped the conquest. It said, “It’s over here. Not a single ship leaves for America until we decide if this is right or wrong.”
Look, I can’t imagine that right now Putin would say, “Stop the war, I want you to discuss whether what we are doing in Ukraine is ethical or not.” Or the United States saying, “No, no, don’t leave Iraq until we see if this aligns with…” That has never happened, but Spain did it.
And it convenes Bartolomé de las Casas, who was the critic of the conquest and said, “The entire enterprise of the conquest must be stopped,” and it convenes Ginés de Sepúlveda, who said, “No, we have to keep going.” And it tells them, “Debate. I want to hear you both.” Each one presents their arguments.
Mind you, Bartolomé de las Casas also had his… well, he wasn’t the saint they make him out to be now. Bartolomé de las Casas, for example, told you, “Look, we shouldn’t enslave the indigenous people because they have formed a kingdom, they are civilization. Let’s enslave the Africans.”
Host (Micros Lucas): Ah, okay.
Guest (Rafael Aita): So he had those things. Bartolomé de las Casas also agreed that the conquest should continue for evangelization, because this population could not be left without the gospel of Christ. And in fact, if we can say they agree on one point, it is that the main justification for the conquest was to continue evangelizing. Some take this as an argument today that if evangelization doesn’t happen, then the entire legal framework from that time until now is not sustained, and therefore, their lands must be returned, the states must be returned, and the countries must be dissolved and returned to the indigenous people because, in truth, from the Pope to the King, the justification was “we must evangelize here.”
The issue is that the debate remains in the arguments. The crown does not issue a judgment in favor of one or the other, but from there, they proclaim the Laws of the Indies. And in the Laws of the Indies, it incorporates the arguments of Bartolomé de las Casas and curbs the power of the encomenderos and all this that we have already discussed.
Myth #3: The Spanish Inquisition in Peru
Guest (Rafael Aita): Many say, “No, but the Laws of the Indies were wet paper, it was a useless piece of paper.” It may be true that the information… if you wanted to enforce a law, if you sent the order from Spain, it took several months to arrive. That is, there was a lag of three, four, five months at least.
Yes, but it is also true that from then on, for example, we see that no indigenous person is judged by the Inquisition anymore, which, well, is no small thing.
When we get to Peru, they say, “The Inquisition in Peru was a disaster because of this and that.” The Inquisition did not kill, nor did it even judge a single indigenous person from Peru. Not one.
Look, I really like this. All this is supported by documents, and documents even from the critics. Because, look, Guamán Poma told you about all the abuses of the Spanish, and he doesn’t tell you “they also burned the indigenous in the Inquisition.”
Host (Micros Lucas): Incredible, right?
Guest (Rafael Aita): So, I really like it when they call me to churches to give talks, people who have been receiving training there for 40 years…
Host (Micros Lucas): Of course, it must be a surprise, a shock.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And I ask them, “How many indigenous people did the Inquisition kill in Peru?” And they tell me, “Thousands,” or “Millions.”
Host (Micros Lucas): Right, right.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And when I tell them “Zero,” they say, “What?” And look, if we talk about numbers, there were 32 executions in total, during the 300 years—250-something years—of which 30 were Europeans: among them French, Portuguese, English, and Dutch. And the rest are the two, two Creoles, one from Lima and one from Tucumán.
So I tell the indigenists, “You like to defend Europeans.”
Host (Micros Lucas): That’s right. You are Eurocentric. Well, it has been like Mike Tyson when they start… Mike Tyson comes and throws several punches in your face to wake you up a bit from what this Black Legend has been. Very interesting, Rafael. We are going to a break, and we will be right back here on Betel News, Betel Television with Piensa Más.
[Music]
Myth #4: The End of the Inca Bloodline
Host (Micros Lucas): We are back here on Piensa Más, recovering a bit from the bombshells that Rafael Aita has dropped on us regarding the Spanish Black Legend. Rafael, it has been a real shock. A shock… really, how ignorant we are of our own history. That is the most terrible part. We were talking about the Derecho Indiano (Indies Law), that effectively they were not treated, they were not considered animals, but they were subjects of law. I think that is the most important thing.
And here also comes the historical process, right? The descendants, the descendants of the originals, of the Incas. There are many interesting stories there.
Guest (Rafael Aita): There are many stories because we are always told that the Incas ended with Atahualpa. And well, the rest were wiped out, killed. And no trace of the Incas remained. I’m talking about the Incas as this Cuzco elite, descendants of the panacas (royal lineages).
Host (Micros Lucas): Let’s see.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Perhaps the Incas were the ones who gained the most in this process.
Host (Micros Lucas): That… I’m asking you to please, stop. Stop, please, go ahead.
The Inca-Spanish Nobility: How the Elites Merged
Guest (Rafael Aita): Look, we have the rebellion of Manco Inca. Manco Inca rebels against the Spanish because the Pizarros, especially Gonzalo Pizarro, treated them in a truly brutal and abusive way.
Host (Micros Lucas): This was like 35 or 40 years after Pizarro’s arrival, more or less?
Guest (Rafael Aita): Closer, 1536.
Host (Micros Lucas): Ah, ‘36. Okay. Right, Manco Inca’s rebellion was very close.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And well, look, Manco Inca realizes that he has all the others against him, that he has his brother against him, because Paullu Inca… defended Cuzco and remained an ally of the Spanish. He says, “This isn’t going anywhere,” and he exiles himself to Vilcabamba, and the Incas of Vilcabamba begin.
Manco Inca’s children also negotiate with the crown. Here you have a very little-known episode. Manco Inca’s son [Sayri Túpac] travels to Lima and meets with the viceroy. And you have, in the recently founded City of Kings, a court of 300 people arriving, carrying an Inca on his litter. And… come on, for the city, this was something overwhelming.
Host (Micros Lucas): Of course.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Sayri Túpac meets with the viceroy Mendoza. To summarize the story, they form an alliance, they give him the encomienda of Yucay, he becomes the richest man in Peru—which for him, he said, “Yes, but this is nothing compared to what the Tawantinsuyu was.” But he had already lost the Tawantinsuyu. There was no way to recover the Tawantinsuyu. The Incas were the first to realize that.
And his daughter… yes, his daughter, they marry her to a nephew of Saint Ignatius of Loyola. Martín García Loyola marries an Inca princess, Beatriz Clara, Sayri Túpac’s daughter. The House of Loyola joins with the House of the Inca. They have a daughter named Ana Lorenza Loyola Inca, who at the same time marries a descendant of the House of Borja, Juan Enríquez de Borja, who were the Dukes of Gandía.
Host (Micros Lucas): Mm.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Look, the Borjas, perhaps we know them more by their Italianized surname, Borgia.
Host (Micros Lucas): The Borgias, right?
Guest (Rafael Aita): Descendants of Popes, descendants of the House of Aragon, of the House of Trastámara. And therefore, in this marriage, the House of the Inca was united in the same family tree. And you had in the same family: two Popes, the Kings of Aragon, Kings of Spain, two saints—Saint Ignatius of Loyola and Saint Francis Borgia—and the Incas. In one family.
Host (Micros Lucas): Mm.
Myth #5: Peru was a “Colony”
Guest (Rafael Aita): So, this lady, Ana Lorenza Loyola Inca, is given a marquessate, the Marquessate of Oropesa, a noble title equivalent to the Grandees of Spain. And therefore, the Inca descendants were recognized with this noble title, and they even had power in Spain, because they went to live in Spain and lived as nobles. And in fact, they participated in the courts, like Juan Bustamante Inca, who participated in the court of Ferdinand VI, if I remember correctly, and they expanded their power.
That’s why I said that those who gained the most were the Incas, because they extended their power all the way to the peninsula itself. Transcontinental. They united their house with the most important houses of Spain. They founded a court of Incas in Cuzco, the Council of the 24 Electors of the Royal Ensign of the Inca. They lived as nobles.
Look, you go to the Inca Museum in Cuzco itself, and you will find the portrait of Marcos Chihuan Topa Inca, descendant of Lloque Yupanki, the third Inca of Peru, where he is dressed as a noble, with the mascaipacha (Inca crown) because he was an Inca descendant, with the title of Royal Ensign, with the King’s standard in his right hand, with the coat of arms that Spain had granted him in his portrait, and its legend says: “Inca, Catholic Knight by the grace of God, and Royal Ensign of His Majesty and of these Kingdoms.”
That is, more integration is impossible. This subject was the Royal Ensign of the King and of Peru, which he calls “Kingdoms.” That’s why the term “Colony” bothers us. They were the Kingdoms of Peru.
Host (Micros Lucas): Right, that’s a key point.
Guest (Rafael Aita): That’s right.
Host (Micros Lucas): So, were we a colony?
Guest (Rafael Aita): Not at all.
Host (Micros Lucas): Okay. What were we?
Guest (Rafael Aita): We were a kingdom.
Host (Micros Lucas): We were a kingdom.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And you know how you realize that? You go to the Royal Palace in Madrid, and you will see the hall… sorry, not the Royal Palace, the Hall of Realms (Salón de Reinos), which is in the Retiro Park, and you will find all the coats of arms of the kingdoms of the Hispanic Empire. So you find the coat of arms of Castile, the coat of arms of Aragon, the coat of arms of Granada, the coat of arms of Naples…
Host (Micros Lucas): Sicily too, I think.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Sicily…
Host (Micros Lucas): Manila… Philippines was also part of…
Guest (Rafael Aita): No, but it wasn’t a kingdom.
Host (Micros Lucas): The mint was there, I understand, right?
Guest (Rafael Aita): It was… it was part of New Spain.
Host (Micros Lucas): Right. It was part of the viceroyalty of New Spain. What is currently Mexico.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And next to them, the Kingdom of Peru and the Kingdom of Mexico. So of course, if you say that Peru was a colony, well, then so was Naples, so was Sicily, the Low Countries—what is Holland today. The Low Countries.
”Colony” vs. “Kingdom”: A Problem of Definition
Guest (Rafael Aita): So, this concept of “colony” doesn’t fit. And on top of that, when we think of the word “colony,” what comes to mind more are the 19th-century colonies in Africa and Asia, a product of the Industrial Revolution.
Host (Micros Lucas): Right, the phenomenon of the Industrial Revolution changes the concept of colony, not only economically, but socially. Because you go to these French, English colonies that were in Africa or even in the United States, and we will find that the buildings were the port and the military barracks.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Of course, the port to extract resources and the barracks to impose order. Come on. What did the English leave in the United States? No, you go and you’ll see the four houses there are in Boston.
We have had a process of mestizaje (mixing) from that moment until today, while in the United States, the first anti-racist laws were passed in the 60s, I think. It’s madness. Marriage between people of different skin colors was prohibited.
Myth #6: Túpac Amaru II, the “Indio”
Host (Micros Lucas): There is a painter, in fact, Spanish, I think, who makes these paintings, right? Of “Indian and Spanish”…
Guest (Rafael Aita): I don’t remember now, but the paintings come out with these… Negro Sambo, Cholo… all the… Look, this was even a cultural issue. It was a very cultural issue. That is, the indigenous person could be considered “Spanish.”
Host (Micros Lucas): Mm.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And when I say this… we can end the program after this.
Host (Micros Lucas): Yes.
Guest (Rafael Aita): You know where this disappears?
Host (Micros Lucas): Please.
Guest (Rafael Aita): With Túpac Amaru II.
Host (Micros Lucas): Aha.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Because when you see the marriage certificate of Túpac Amaru—who was not a “poor little Indian,” but a guy who had wealth, he was a guy who managed… well, he was also cultured, he had been educated by Jesuits, he spoke Latin—that’s why his marriage certificate talks about the marriage of the “Spaniard” José Gabriel Túpac Amaru with Micaela Bastidas.
Host (Micros Lucas): Well, it has been a pleasure, this program. We’re going to leave… No, just kidding, we’re still going.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Boom. Well, of course, the thing is, he was mestizo. A mestizo who had been educated by Jesuits, spoke Latin… he was considered a Spaniard. Imagine. It was a cultural issue more than a skin color issue. Now, people think a lot that it was by skin color that they divided them. No. It was depending on where you lived: if you lived in a “Spanish city” or if you lived in an Andean community. And there they told you, “Ah, well, then this one is ‘Indian,’ this one is ‘Spanish.’”
And mind you, the indigenous, as we already said, were protected by the Laws of the Indies; they could not be enslaved. When they tell you, “No, 300 years of slavery,” there was no slavery of the natives in Peru. They had special protection. So, of course, these categories also helped you see who was included in that protection. Effectively, because if he is “native,” he cannot be judged by the Inquisition, as we already said.
The International Origins: England, Holland, and Protestant Propaganda
Host (Micros Lucas): It’s incredible. Super interesting. Now, who have been the main promoters of the Black Legend? Because, of course, it is a phenomenon that affects Peru, but in reality, it is a phenomenon that affects the entire region. Spain too. Where do these attacks come from, and why do they arise?
Guest (Rafael Aita): I would say that this also changes over time. Those who promote the Black Legend today are not the same as those in the 16th century. In the 16th century, it was a very cultural, political, religious, and circumstantial issue, where we find that the wars of the time—for example, the wars between Spain and England, or the wars between Spain and the Netherlands…
Host (Micros Lucas): The 80 Years’ War.
Guest (Rafael Aita): …Right. It fosters the spread of a Black Legend, a product of the political-religious situation.
Host (Micros Lucas): Of course, there is a very important juncture there… which is of interest to our audience… which is Protestantism that arises with Luther, right? With the theses in Wittenberg in 1517, if I remember correctly. And from there, a religious-political fragmentation begins, which starts several wars.
Guest (Rafael Aita): It started the 30 Years’ War with Germany, the 80 Years’ War, the Holy Roman Empire… which I would say shapes the modern state.
Host (Micros Lucas): Of course, because the product of those wars is the Peace of Westphalia, which divides the state from the church.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Right, that’s the cuius regio, eius religio (whose realm, his religion). That is, according to the religion of the dominant king or prince, that is the religion that territory will have. So, of course, if today we complain, “Why is there a secular state?” Well, this is born from the Peace of Westphalia, also a product of the impulse of the Protestants.
Host (Micros Lucas): Aha.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And there is a fragmentation, and effectively, there you enter a war for the Spanish. That is their main mark of pain. A tremendous defeat in [1588] against the English, who… in reality, they don’t lose against the English, they lose against a brutal storm that… decimates their “Invincible” Armada.
Theodor de Bry: The Illustrator Who “Invented” the Inquisition’s Horrors
Guest (Rafael Aita): Here we enter a problem. What does the war between Spain and England, between the Netherlands and Spain, have to do with it? The English, who… well, had also created a schism with Anglicanism, begin to use political propaganda. Perhaps the first time that political propaganda is used massively against Spain. And at that time, it was the great power… it was the one that dominated… “in my empire, the sun never sets.”
Host (Micros Lucas): Exactly.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Right, the objective was to make Spain look bad to justify our war. And therefore, you have the English publishing houses that take the writings of Bartolomé de las Casas.
Host (Micros Lucas): Of course. Effectively.
Guest (Rafael Aita): And they exploit them. You have William of Orange in Holland.
Host (Micros Lucas): Right, who commissions…
Guest (Rafael Aita): William of Orange, the hero of the independence of the Glorious Revolution.
Host (Micros Lucas): Of the Glorious Revolution. Right, in fact, they make him monarch in 168… the first king of Holland.
Guest (Rafael Aita): …and the subject looks for an illustrator named Theodor de Bry. And he tells him, “I want you to use the chronicles of Bartolomé de las Casas and what has been written about the Inquisition and the conquest, and make the most horrifying, ghastly, and macabre drawings that can come out of your head.”
This subject obviously never traveled, never set foot in America, never met an indigenous person. You see the drawings he makes of the indigenous people, and they make no sense. But the subject illustrates in a totally frightful way, worthy of a horror movie, how they burned them and sawed them and hung them en masse.
Host (Micros Lucas): Of course, with the printing press, that just…
Guest (Rafael Aita): And with the printing press, he made it explode. Look, someone might tell you, “Ah, but look, we’re talking about 400 years ago, now we have the internet.” I search on Google for “Spanish Inquisition,” and the drawings of Theodor de Bry come up. That is, to this day, they are still being used to denigrate the Inquisition—drawings by a subject who had a clear political goal: “We have to make Spain and the Inquisition look like the worst thing that has ever existed.”
Host (Micros Lucas): But without a basis in reality. He had no interest in communicating or spreading the truth.
Guest (Rafael Aita): An interest rather to destroy, to leave it as the worst there is. Obviously, behind that was the war, there was independence, there was the issue of separating Protestantism from Catholicism. “Look, those are Catholics, they did this, we don’t. We have to found a new country, we cannot be under the yoke of these wretches.”
So, that circumstantial event that happened in the midst of a war and in the midst of exacerbated hatred reaches us today as a reliable source.
Myth #7: The “Horror” of the Inquisition vs. Military Justice
Host (Micros Lucas): And obviously all this is documented, because you wouldn’t say something that isn’t precisely documented. Is this idea true that… what I have heard from historians, too… that in reality, the alternative to the Holy Inquisition was popular justice?
Guest (Rafael Aita): Yes.
Host (Micros Lucas): Or military justice.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Or the justice…
Host (Micros Lucas): Which were a bit more drastic, I think.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Well, popular justice is clear. Go see the ronderos (peasant patrols) there in Cajamarca, how they grab the thieves. It was that, but a slightly more formal procedure.
Look, we can see that ourselves here in Peru, because you go to the Real Felipe (fortress), and you will find the cells where they put the pirates, the criminals. And of course, it was a frightening thing. A situation where they put you standing, one next to the other, and you had to sleep standing up.
Host (Micros Lucas): Of course.
Guest (Rafael Aita): I mean, you can tell they had time to think of the cruelest methods. Military justice… I mean, being put in the Real Felipe was terrible. And that is why many who committed a crime—and this also goes against all the paradigms they have told us—would blaspheme against God so they would be sent to the Inquisition, because the Inquisition was more benevolent than the Real Felipe jail.
So, “I prefer to go to the Inquisition where they will ask me for a confession, to repent, to wear a sanbenito (penitential garment), than to be made to stand up and have to sleep standing.”
Conclusion: Breaking the “Romanticization of Defeat”
Host (Micros Lucas): Effectively. No, no, no. How terrible. Oye, Rafael, just to start wrapping up… this isn’t over. That is, we have really seen the tip of the iceberg, openly.
Guest (Rafael Aita): It’s the surface. One can break down these topics… Look, we haven’t even entered the 20th century.
Host (Micros Lucas): No, no, no. That will be for another program, brother. But I tell you, it is very interesting. The important thing is that there is always rigor, and that the search for the truth sea without sesgos de ningún tipo. That is, we must strip ourselves of any prejudice and see history for what it is.
In the end, one can have interpretations; the same event can be interpreted in different ways, but you cannot say the amount of absurdities that you have just refuted. And not only because of what you are saying here; you have written books about it. There are sources that you have consulted that have this information, which were not written by you, but were written by the chroniclers of the time.
So, it is very interesting. What do we Peruvians gain by getting rid of this Black Legend?
Guest (Rafael Aita): I would say, to look at our own history with greater optimism. It would be a much richer, more majestic history, in reality. And one that would make us prouder.
I think a general problem in Peru is that we put mental barriers on ourselves, and we see that very clearly in sports, right? “We played like never before, we lost as always.”
Host (Micros Lucas): Right.
Guest (Rafael Aita): We always have that fear of success, of being recognized, of being great. Not believing it… like that goal in the 90th minute against the…
Host (Micros Lucas): Yes, we always romanticize defeat.
Guest (Rafael Aita): Exactly. No, we always feel better as the ones who fought to the end, but perdieron. “But we still fought.”
Host (Micros Lucas): “But we still fought.”
Guest (Rafael Aita): We don’t feel comfortable in the role of winners because we are taught that the winner is bad, the winner is abusive. The winner, the one who is successful, is because he is corrupt. “Let’s see how he managed to get there.” The loser is the “poor little guy” with whom we identify.
We have to break that because that is mediocrity. That is what keeps us submerged in the mud. That is, the promoters of the Black Legend are promoters of victimhood and mediocrity.
Final Bombshell: Peru, a “Land of Empires”
Guest (Rafael Aita): And of course, I think the last ones who would have the right to do that would be Peru. Why? Because Peru is a land of empires. And what happens is that here, there is an allergy to the word “empire.” When I say “empire,” they tell me, “No, no, no. The Incas were not an empire because an empire has to be bad.” No, it was an empire. It was an empire. It was an empire that had bad things.
Host (Micros Lucas): The Incas enslaved people.
Guest (Rafael Aita): We cannot call them “slaves” when there isn’t a market for buying and selling.
Host (Micros Lucas): Okay.
Guest (Rafael Aita): But they had yanaconas, who were servants, products of war. So yes, it is true that the Incas also had their own conception and structure. Even so, they were a marvelous empire.
And they were a tremendous empire where, furthermore, it connects with the Kingdoms of Peru. And look, maybe here’s the last bombshell. When the political system was drawn during the viceroyalty, they didn’t draw Charles V as the first king of Peru. They drew Manco Cápac with the 14 Incas up to Atahualpa, and the successor to Atahualpa was Charles V, as the 15th King of Peru. And the painting says, “Effigies of the Kings of Peru and their successors, the Kings of Spain.” Viceroy Luis de Velasco said, “The Peruvian empire founded by Manco Cápac I.”
That is, an imperial continuity was understood here. And for them to tell us that… Come on, Peru was the political, economic, social, cultural center. It was the first university in America. It was where the currency for the whole world was minted.
They came to Peru to be educated. They came to Peru to learn… With all the respect and affection I have for the Argentines… from Buenos Aires, from Santiago, from Bogotá, they came to Peru to see it as the center of prosperity because they were our periphery.
So, come on, we cannot put ourselves in the role of “Oh, victim, poor little guy”… unless they erase that history from you and tell you, “No, you weren’t a kingdom, you weren’t an empire, you were humiliated.” And then, yes, boom, you lower your head.
Final Thoughts and Sign-off
Host (Micros Lucas): Right, effectively. Well, Rafael, it has been an amazing program, truly super interesting. The moral is: do research on your own. Also see, right? Contrast opinions, contrast sources. The idea is always to reach the truth. That always makes us better people.
Rafael, muchísimas gracias, ha sido un placer y seguramente te tendremos en otra ocasión aquí.
Guest (Rafael Aita): I commit to it right now. And look for me as “Capitán Perú.”
Host (Micros Lucas): Ah, of course. And find Rafael on his networks as Capitán Perú. Your shield… they are polishing it right now, I imagine.
Guest (Rafael Aita): I can bring it next time.
Host (Micros Lucas): Okay, perfect. A big hug and thank you very much.